Zhang Yimou is an internationally acclaimed director working in the People’s Republic of China. Since his film debut in 1987 with Red Sorghum, Zhang Yimou has established his reputation as one of the most talented and influential directors today. Some of his most well-known films include Judou (1990), Raise the Red Lantern (1991), Shanghai Triad (1995), and Not One Less (1999).

Now his first martial arts film, Hero (2002), was released by Miramax this year in the US. The story is set 2,200 years ago, during the reign of the King of Qin (Chen Daoming), the emperor who united China and built the Great Wall. It revolves around three master assassins--Broken Sword (Tony Leung Chiu-wai), Flying Snow (Maggie Cheung) and Sky (Donnie Yen)--who threaten the emperor's life and the nameless hero (Jet Li) who defeats them. "Nameless" tells how he vanquished the king's enemies, but when the Qin king (Chen Dao Ming) rejects the account, he presents a second, a third and finally a fourth version.

Together with the critically acclaimed cinematographer, Chris Doyle, who has worked on many Wong Kar Wai films, Zhang has been praised for the film's "visual poetry" and its "serious examination of the nature of heroism." On May 25, 2004, Asian CineVision in association with Asia Society and Miramax Films presented "A Conversation with Zhang Yimou" with Barbara London, Curator of Video and Digital Media, Museum of Modern Art. In these excerpts, Zhang speaks about his past works, the collaborative work on Hero, and his outlook on the film industry in China.

What interests you about making period pieces?

Most of my films are historical in nature. Since the very first film I made, Red Sorghum, I have really liked historical stories. But at the time I made this film, a main reason we decided on that time period was because China had very strict censorship. When you make a film, especially about a tragic story, you'll have to put the characters under a certain pressure from society, and then you'll show that the characters fight their fate and tragedy. But what kind of pressure are you going to put them under? Obviously, there would be a problem doing this in contemporary Chinese society. Such films would not gain easy approval. So we decided to set the film in the old society. Everyone knew about the "Three Big Mountains" on the back of the poor. We placed everything at that time in China under feudalism. This way the subject becomes easier to deal with in the film. Our original idea wasn't really to make a political statement, but rather the story requires strong pressure so that we can describe the fate of the characters. All stories need such a background.

Today, we know some Chinese directors resort to this method when they have a story to tell. They simply trace the time backwards and place the story in a safe time period when it would be easier to make the film and would not cause them any trouble. So we have seen that this is our creation and it is not necessarily that we have special sentiments about a certain time period. Sometimes we pick a certain time period solely for the purpose of implementing a plan. It can be a film production need. That was what happened to me at the beginning of my career and so I made some historical films. After some time, you just get used to it, and actually find historical stories more interesting. One simply has a larger space for imagination and for depiction.

Puccini's opera, Turandot, is set during legendary times in Beijing. How did you get involved in the film project? How do you feel about the three riddles in the story?

It is really a very Eastern concept to use these riddles. But the answers to these riddles are very Western. I really don't spend any time solving riddles with answers such as "freedom" and "blood." This really was Puccini's imaginary Eastern story. It was quite interesting how I undertook to film this opera. The Florence Opera house had been contacting me for nearly a year, and had sent me many faxes asking me whether I'd be interested in directing an opera. I was busy making films, and really didn't pay them much attention. I thought they must have been joking. Why would I, a film director, direct an opera? So I didn't pay them any attention, and let it sit there for nearly a year.

One day, I told Zhao Jiping, a music composer, this funny story about these people wanting me to direct an opera. He asked me what kind of opera and I said I really didn't know, but perhaps it was about a princess. He was excited and said that it might be Turandot, a very famous opera and the story was set in China. He talked a lot about Puccini and other basic knowledge of opera. He said that this was an unrivaled opera. He found a videotape of Turandot for me. It was a version released by the New York Metropolitan Opera. It was directed by an American director and was very good. After I saw it, I thought this would be called a grand opera, with those grand scenes, but I still didn't understand what was being sung. The next day Zhao Jiping gave me a rough summary of the story, and suggested that I really should direct this opera even if it meant that I had to give up a film. Seeing that he was so into it, I faxed the Florence Opera house saying that I could consider directing it, and would like to discuss it with them. This set it rolling, which resulted in the current version of Turandot.

Zhao Jiping is my music composer. He composed the music for Judou. Later, after deciding on this, I had to expand my knowledge about this opera. Florence Opera house sent me a bunch of information about Turandot, and I checked out lots of books from a library about operas and the life of Puccini, etc. But I found that the more I read, the more confused I got. It is really a different field. But then it occurred to me the reason why Florence Opera House wanted me to direct the opera was that they value my view as an outsider. If I studied too much about it, I wouldn't be an outsider any more, and that wouldn't be interesting to them. They really wanted a fresh take from a total layman. So I stopped studying it. I gave up and left it half-cooked. Obviously, they were hoping that I would have some really wonderful ideas as an outsider.

Are there any parallels with your film Hero?

There's no direct relationship. If they are related in any way, because they are both my productions, they are both bold in colors, putting emphasis on visual effects. In fact, Hero, as a martial art film, conveys my idea for this genre. Personally, I think China's martial art films are different from the Western action films. The most important difference is that China's martial art films place a lot of importance on aesthetics, even poetry, romance, and the beauty of the whole story. I think that really distinguishes martial art films from action movies. Ever since I was little, I have watched martial art competitions year after year. The aesthetics of the actions of these masters really was a big component in the final scores. So when I make martial art films, I try to differentiate them from the West's action films, with lots of emphasis on aesthetic appeal to the eyes. This is what I feel will be my signature mark on martial art films.

What is special to you about the Qin Dynasty?

I wanted to make a film about the color black since I had read in some historical material that the Qin Dynasty revered the color black. Black was the state color. As a cinematographer, I know that the color black is the most difficult to film. Solid pitch black is not hard to film but what's hard to do is layered blackness. There had been some Chinese films about the Qin Dynasty, including The Emperor and the Assassin, directed by Chen Kaige, with whom I had a discussion about filming black. But none of those films did a satisfactory job in doing black. I really just started thinking about doing black, from a visual point of view. I thought it would be good to set the story in the Qin Dynasty. Of course, I am from Shaanxi province, and my ancestors were from Lingtong. Qin was my home, and I am proud to be associated with it.

So I decided to do the film during the Qin Dynasty and to make the story center on the first emperor. What I didn't expect was that this film would cause a lot of trouble. Everyone in China knew about the massive political debate about Hero. One article was really right in saying that it was all the first emperor's fault. In fact, choosing a certain dynasty is sometimes just a random technical detail. There is really no rule that I follow. However, I have a certain affection for the Qin and Han Dynasties, just as numerous poets have said, "Qin's Moon" and "Han's Gateways", and "Qin's Bricks and Han's Tiles". I personally think the art of the Qin and Han Dynasties had a certain grandiosity to them, and a certain primitiveness, and simplicity. For instance, in one poem, Li Bai wrote in "O' to the Hero", "Killing one person each ten feet, no trace left for thousands of miles; Now that the Buddha had gone, and God and enlightenment is hidden in depth." He vividly depicted the images of the heros. I believed he wrote about what happened in the Qin and Han period. Li Bai himself lived in the Tang Dynasty, so it is not likely he'd write about his contemporaries. He'd only write about things and people of past times. One can still see the heritage of the Qin and Han times in my home province, and I really like this style. Setting the film in this period gives a starting point to fully depict the grandiosity of the bronze time.

Can you talk about the score?

I have known Tan Dun for over 20 years. We are old friends dating back to before he came to the US. He was outstanding in his generation, the so-called "fifth generation" of the Music Academy. I know all of them. He is the one who is always coming up with new ideas. Some people who dislike his music accuse him of being too avant-guarde. I personally think he is not constrained by traditions and is always seeking to inject new elements in music. He is hoping not to interpret music from one single angle. I really like his creativity and his bravery. Sometimes I find his work strange. For instance, he'd ruffle paper for hours on stage, or play with water, but I really like him.

I heard his score for Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, when I was invited to the screening in Beijing. I found the score wonderful and it really helped the film a great deal. It was very interesting and very thought provoking. I suddenly realized that I had lost touch with Tan Dun for years. He really had changed a lot. I found his music incredible, and I had a feeling that it was going to win some awards, including the Oscar. And that was what happened later. He really made us Chinese proud. So when I made my first martial arts film, Hero, the first person that came to my mind was Tan Dun. Firstly, he was a good friend; secondly, he had that good vibe, and I hoped to benefit from it.

Tan Dun was glad to work with me and agreed immediately in spite of his busy schedule. He'd make time to cooperate with me. He always had great ideas. He had invited Perlman to play the violin, telling me he is the world's number one master. And I came to New York for the recording. I was very excited to see this violin master and to watch him play. Perlman is handicapped and when he entered the recording studio, with a violin in his hand, Tan Dun nudged me and whispered, "See that violin? Two and half million US dollar!" So I was looking forward to the wonderful music produced with such an expensive violin. Then Tan Dun brought out his own violin, and asked me "How much do you think mine would cost? Forty yuan! I bought it in Guizhou before I came to the US." He insisted that the master Perlman use his violin and he had also loosened all the strings so it was totally out of tune. He insisted that Mr. Perlman use his forty-yuan violin. For over an hour Mr. Perlman just couldn't get it right. Tan Dun said that Mr. Perlman is known through the music world for the accuracy of his tune. That's a non-disputed fact. But he had to play that forty yuan violin with the strings loosened. In the end, we really did record the music played from that violin for Hero, and it had a battered and sad feel to it. Mr. Perlman really didn't know what to do about it. But the next day when he came back to the studio, he was very excited. He said each time he'd play the recording to his children, or perhaps grandchildren. If the kids like it, it would be good. This time his grand daughter loved it and said he'd never played anything that wonderful. He was really excited. From this detail we can see Tan Dun's creativity. The soundtrack of Hero is very melodious, and everyone likes the solo violin part. It was what was played with the five dollar violin. What he made me realize was that value is not always measured by money. Creativity and imagination are what counts.

Are you going to continue to collaborate with Tan Dun?

In fact, I was discussing our future plans with Tan Dun. In cooperation with the New York Metropolitan Opera, Tan Dun will compose a opera, with the story set in the Qin Dynasty. Domingo will be The First Emperor, and it will be played in the Metropolitan Opera. I will be the director. We are planning to premier it in December of 2006. It will probably be played in Los Angeles, China and other parts of the world in 2007. The plan's already been made and Tan Dun is writing it right now. So I will be back to New York to meet with everyone. The Metropolitan Opera still wants me to do the homework on opera by watching lots and lots of them.

What are your favorite American movies? What do you think of Asian Americans in Hollywood?

There are many genres of American films and I spend most of my film time watching American films because American films really takes up a large part of the world film market. Wherever you go in the theaters around the world, what you see are mostly American films, especially American commercial films. There are many American directors and actors that I like a lot. But of course, there are good ones, and not so good ones. I am not against Hollywood's commercial films, and I watch them very often and often find good ones there. One can't really make a generalization about Hollywood. I am not like the French and the Italians who are hostile to Hollywood, calling it all junk. I have varied taste, and watch a lot, whatever catches my attention. The most recent one that I saw was in Hong Kong. It is a sci-fi, ghost kind of film, mixing ghosts, vampires, etc., all together. I don't really remember the name of the film because it was translated in Hong Kong. But I really like the computer animations and special effects.

There are many foreign directors who are seeking to develop in Hollywood. It is true in many countries that directors, once they make their names known in their own country, are immediately bought over by Hollywood, or rather, they are drafted to Hollywood. I think these are all the personal choices of the directors themselves. The large market that Hollywood could provide constitutes a great temptation to many directors. An audience of 20,000 is very different from an audience of 2 million. It's natural that lots of directors want to seek their development in Hollywood so they'll have a larger space and a larger audience.

There are examples of Asian American directors, such as Ang Lee and John Woo, and successful examples too. It all shows their success. I think they made the right choice in coming to Hollywood. But often, I have been asked whether I wanted to come to Hollywood myself. My answer is that I am not suitable for Hollywood. First I don't know the language. Second, the films I make are all based in China. If I come here, I can't really make the films here. I won't even be able to make a third-rate film. So I know myself, and know that I can't really be separated from the land I grew up in. I can only stay in China.

Hero is not a major contender for the Oscars given its late release in the US. How do you feel about it being marketed as a Quentin Tarantino film, not a Zhang Yimou?

This film's release had been delayed a long time in the US. I think this is Miramax's own plan, and I can't really intervene. My manager also told me that the contract says the timing for the release is also set by them. We could only worry. Jet Li told me that at least $20 million dollars were lost as a result of the delayed release. He did a calculation, saying that all the Chinese people in the US had all seen it on DVDs, or VCDs, so they won't go to theaters. But timing is still their commercial choice, and I can't really do anything.

Miramax asked me before whether it would be okay for them to market it as "Quentin Tarantino presents." Quentin and I are friends, and when he was making Kill Bill in Beijing, I went to see him. I found out that his staff is mostly the staff of Hero, and I joked with him that he is using my people and we are really one family. I think this is really an American marketing scheme, and I don't have any problem with it. Quentin is also a director who I really like. It is only natural that they use an American way for marketing, for each region has its own way of marketing.

There are many good sources of Chinese literature to draw from for your films. Now 10 years after you began your career, are they still inspiring you even when China is now more commercial?

I still think so. China has many good stories, and it still is an inexhaustible source for our creation. It is not limited to literature. You can say that all the stories from thousands of years of history are an inexhaustible source for filmmaking. I have many plans for making films. For instance, I really want to make a film with the Cultural Revolution as the background because that is an important part of my life, when I was between 16 and 26. I really want to make a film about that time. One can't really exhaust the stories of those ten years. It's not that I want to make a political film, but rather show the fate of people, the love and hate, the happiness and sadness, and the most valuable things in human nature. I really like stories that reveal the way people lived. But unfortunately in China, these stories are still taboo. What I can do is to accumulate experience and train myself. Once I can make such films, stories of those ten years could last a whole lifetime.

How do you think Hollywood has influenced the film industry in China?

I think it would be good for a marketing system to compete with Hollywood but is it really difficult to do. Not only Asian films want to fight Hollywood, the whole world wants to fight Hollywood. When you go around the world and talk with film workers, that is always a topic that comes up -- how to fight the invasion of Hollywood's commercial films and how to protect their national films. Both artists and governments are talking about the same thing. Hollywood will not easily give up the market it has taken. Hollywood is really smart and has gotten all the good directors from all over the world. It has got some of the best directors in China, including martial arts instructors from Hong Kong. So much so that we can't even find qualified people because Hollywood is paying more money. They are employed in Hollywood permanently designing martial arts postures. So Hollywood is really digging up talent all over the world, and attracts these talents with lucrative rewards. It has also continuously changed its tactics and tastes to make money from all over the world. The trend has a strong momentum and one can't really get the world back from them. Hollywood has been built over many years. No one can fight them establishing a commission or pooling some resources and money.

A more serious problem is that Hollywood has cultivated its own new generation of audiences for its commericial films. In China, young people only like Hollywood hits. They can easily name all the Hollywood stars. American young people say, "who of you can name Chinese stars?" No one can do it. How many Chinese films do you see every year in the American market? There are just a handful. We can see from here that Hollywood really has a young generation of followers. We feel that our national film industry is placed under pressure because we know that the most important audiences for films are young people. This really presents us with a challenge and we have always taken it to be our responsibility to make good Chinese films and do our part to influence the Chinese audience. For instance, we show them Hero, whether they like it or not, and we present to them a Chinese color, Chinese cast, and Chinese people.

Interview translated by Lili Fan.

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